Comments on: Devil’s advocate and The Rape of Nanjing http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/ From physics to philosophy Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:36:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: GP http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-11130 GP Sat, 19 May 2007 05:12:42 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-11130 The big red flag that pops up here is that the errors were pointed out by <em>Japanese</em> historian groups. They're not exactly the first group I'd run to for clarification on what atrocities the Japanese military may or may not have committed, for the same reasons that I wouldn't fully trust everything the Chinese say about what attrocities may or may not have been commiitted against them. Neither side is going to be completely unbiased. The big red flag that pops up here is that the errors were pointed out by Japanese historian groups. They’re not exactly the first group I’d run to for clarification on what atrocities the Japanese military may or may not have committed, for the same reasons that I wouldn’t fully trust everything the Chinese say about what attrocities may or may not have been commiitted against them. Neither side is going to be completely unbiased.

]]> By: TAMAGAWABOAT http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-11101 TAMAGAWABOAT Thu, 17 May 2007 22:27:00 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-11101 REGARDING TO Iris Chnag's "The Rape of Nanking" There are few Japanese people that have read Iris Chang’s “The Rape of Nanking”. This book has not been published in Japan though Iris Chang wished to translate into Japanese and published it in Japan. When “The Rape of Nanking” attached a lot of publicity in the United States, more than 90 errors in this book were pointed out by some Japanese historian groups. These errors included some errors as Japanese primary school pupils could point out. Probably Japanese people have read this book reviewed that Iris Chang had no experienced to learn about Japan. The Japanese publisher requested her to correct errors and rewrite, but she persisted to translate this book exactly. The publisher gave up finally. Because nobody wanted to make a fool of himself. If the publication of “The Rape of Nanking in Japanese” had realized, many Japanese people could have read this book and most of them would have doubted “the existence of Nanking Massacre” earlier. At present, there are few people believe the existence of Nanking Massacre in Japan. THE FAKE OF NANKING http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwqFOxmr2to REGARDING TO Iris Chnag’s “The Rape of Nanking”
There are few Japanese people that have read Iris Chang’s “The Rape of Nanking”. This book has not been published in Japan though Iris Chang wished to translate into Japanese and published it in Japan. When “The Rape of Nanking” attached a lot of publicity in the United States, more than 90 errors in this book were pointed out by some Japanese historian groups. These errors included some errors as Japanese primary school pupils could point out. Probably Japanese people have read this book reviewed that Iris Chang had no experienced to learn about Japan. The Japanese publisher requested her to correct errors and rewrite, but she persisted to translate this book exactly. The publisher gave up finally. Because nobody wanted to make a fool of himself. If the publication of “The Rape of Nanking in Japanese” had realized, many Japanese people could have read this book and most of them would have doubted “the existence of Nanking Massacre” earlier. At present, there are few people believe the existence of Nanking Massacre in Japan.
THE FAKE OF NANKING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwqFOxmr2to

]]> By: GP http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-7016 GP Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:14:07 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-7016 Really? That's interesting. Most estimates today are much more than that. I also wonder who made the announcement, as I believe Japan had installed puppet governments in the areas of China they occupied at that time. If it was one of those, they'd hardly be credible. Even in 1938 some people had reported 300 000 dead. Of course these also could be exaggerations from the opposing side, but in better agreement to what historians say now. Really? That’s interesting. Most estimates today are much more than that. I also wonder who made the announcement, as I believe Japan had installed puppet governments in the areas of China they occupied at that time. If it was one of those, they’d hardly be credible. Even in 1938 some people had reported 300 000 dead. Of course these also could be exaggerations from the opposing side, but in better agreement to what historians say now.

]]> By: Lita Chan http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-7015 Lita Chan Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:02:03 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-7015 According to the China's official announcement at the League of Nations in 1938,the number of dead people in Nangking is about 20000. According to the China’s official announcement at the League of Nations in 1938,the number of dead people in Nangking is about 20000.

]]> By: GP http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6999 GP Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:50:32 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6999 History is written by the victors. Sometimes I wonder along similar lines. I definitely believe morals are subjective. We all know that the atomic bombs were big and bad and did all sorts of damage, but for some reason we (the western powers who used them) never talk about the immorality of it. We justify it to ourselves as something that was needed to end the war, thinking of it in more in terms of an enemy that suffered a defeat in battle than a massacre of thousands of innocent lives. But of course I have a bias there, since I lived in Nagasaki and saw first hand how it affects people there even to this day. It is the same bias that anybody from Nanjing and the other areas that Japan occupied feels towards the Japanese people. The problem is that equating anger for one thing with moral superiority over it is an easy but dangerous step to take. History is written by the victors.

Sometimes I wonder along similar lines. I definitely believe morals are subjective. We all know that the atomic bombs were big and bad and did all sorts of damage, but for some reason we (the western powers who used them) never talk about the immorality of it. We justify it to ourselves as something that was needed to end the war, thinking of it in more in terms of an enemy that suffered a defeat in battle than a massacre of thousands of innocent lives.

But of course I have a bias there, since I lived in Nagasaki and saw first hand how it affects people there even to this day. It is the same bias that anybody from Nanjing and the other areas that Japan occupied feels towards the Japanese people.

The problem is that equating anger for one thing with moral superiority over it is an easy but dangerous step to take.

]]> By: Sakamura http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6995 Sakamura Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:22:39 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6995 True. Again, with the opposite view, like you mostly say, these people are war veterans, people who served their countries to the best of their abilities. War atrocities happens, and to see it still happens today in this hyper-mediatized world (all these military martial courts for atrocities that were leaked since 9-11), let's just imagine what it was back then. They are still veterans, they are still heroes, they are still the ones who gave their life to their country, and they come from everywhere in Japan. Let's reverse roles, for the sake of it. Japan won. I wonder how many Chinese atrocities and American atrocities and Canadian atrocities they would be able to fish out. As an example, we can see Vietnam, we hear a lot about the way the soldiers handled themselves, mostly because it all ended up in a big stalemate. We can see the great movie Apocalypse Now, and see (in a dramatized fashion) how people handled themselves there. Are we to discredit all the Vietnam soldiers there because of what happened? We should if we would want to be consequent. Even if they were following orders. Fun to see the different possibilties. True. Again, with the opposite view, like you mostly say, these people are war veterans, people who served their countries to the best of their abilities. War atrocities happens, and to see it still happens today in this hyper-mediatized world (all these military martial courts for atrocities that were leaked since 9-11), let’s just imagine what it was back then. They are still veterans, they are still heroes, they are still the ones who gave their life to their country, and they come from everywhere in Japan.

Let’s reverse roles, for the sake of it. Japan won. I wonder how many Chinese atrocities and American atrocities and Canadian atrocities they would be able to fish out.

As an example, we can see Vietnam, we hear a lot about the way the soldiers handled themselves, mostly because it all ended up in a big stalemate. We can see the great movie Apocalypse Now, and see (in a dramatized fashion) how people handled themselves there. Are we to discredit all the Vietnam soldiers there because of what happened? We should if we would want to be consequent. Even if they were following orders.

Fun to see the different possibilties.

]]> By: GP http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6993 GP Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:15:53 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6993 Very good point. There were many things I saw in Japan that could be very well described in those terms, as simply as being in denial over something that happened, or in the case of their changing society, that was happening. (And of course this is not peculiar to the Japanese, it just happens that that's what I'm familiar with.) Very good point. There were many things I saw in Japan that could be very well described in those terms, as simply as being in denial over something that happened, or in the case of their changing society, that was happening. (And of course this is not peculiar to the Japanese, it just happens that that’s what I’m familiar with.)

]]> By: Sakamura http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6992 Sakamura Tue, 27 Feb 2007 05:44:02 +0000 http://www.booberfish.com/blog/2007/02/devils-advocate-and-the-rape-of-nanjing/#comment-6992 My job revolves around trying to find the best solution to a problem, and this often involves debating a well-debated point until everyone is tired of it. This has led me to doubt everything I do and know, and try to find the second possibility, or even the third one. I think it's a good thing to be able to guess one's ideas. On topic, my main concern with the behaviour you describe is the closeness. Let's remember for a second that prior to WWII, Japan never had any major loss to any other country. They are "the" country, and everything else is their subordinates. That defeat scarred them very badly, and I do believe they are still resenting the fact. It's been a mere 2 generations, most people who were born just prior to the war are still alive today, that makes a heckload of people who are not happy with that. Seeing that shrine, as an act in itself, I do not think it's evil. Seeing that shrine in that context is a good fuel for less than noble sentiments by a group of the population. Same for black power, or women's lib, or even for French people in Quebec to be recognized as something more than uneducated and uneducatable cheap labor. That's simply too close to be taken for granted, a mere generation. Laws might change, but mentalities takes more time. My job revolves around trying to find the best solution to a problem, and this often involves debating a well-debated point until everyone is tired of it. This has led me to doubt everything I do and know, and try to find the second possibility, or even the third one. I think it’s a good thing to be able to guess one’s ideas.

On topic, my main concern with the behaviour you describe is the closeness. Let’s remember for a second that prior to WWII, Japan never had any major loss to any other country. They are “the” country, and everything else is their subordinates. That defeat scarred them very badly, and I do believe they are still resenting the fact. It’s been a mere 2 generations, most people who were born just prior to the war are still alive today, that makes a heckload of people who are not happy with that. Seeing that shrine, as an act in itself, I do not think it’s evil. Seeing that shrine in that context is a good fuel for less than noble sentiments by a group of the population.

Same for black power, or women’s lib, or even for French people in Quebec to be recognized as something more than uneducated and uneducatable cheap labor. That’s simply too close to be taken for granted, a mere generation. Laws might change, but mentalities takes more time.

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